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Deep thoughts...

I'm currently reading John Locke's, "An Essay Concerning the True Original, Extent and End of Government" and came across this passage:

“Adam was created a perfect man, his body and mind in full possession of their strength and reason, and so was capable from the first instant of his being to provide for his own support and preservation, and govern his actions according to the dictates of the law of reason God had implanted in him.”

Being an atheist who doesn’t believe in a god who created everything, I started mulling over these questions about the story of creation:

• When Adam was created, what was in his mind?
• Did God give him a memory, or was he like a baby that had to be taught? If given a memory, then a memory of what? If he gave him a memory, did he, upon his creation, know that he was just created, or did he think he just woke up from a sleep? If he had a false memory, was god lying to him?
• Did God give him a language (the Bible implies that he did), and if so, what concepts could he really understand, without any prior experiences?

I know creationists would have rationalistic answers to these questions and I’m not asking for answers… just something to ponder…

By sfvpool
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17 comments

0

I find it silly the amount of energy both sides of the god debate expand on a pointless question. The true power of religion is in the manipulation of fear and doubt as to a persons purpose. The only value of faith of any kind is in its use as a tool to build a healthy personal point of view on ethical and positive behavior both for yourself and others. If a religious institution does good works, feeds the poor etc great though the actions link to coercion in relation to conversion pollutes many such actions. Adams creation has value only in so far as it applies to reinforcing or teaching positive action or thought. Too me it does neither. It simply cements the idea men are superior to woman. For me the only real value of the creation story is the idea that ultimately god allowed satan (being omniscient and all) to lead us down the path to free will because he/she/it did not want to have a population of dumb slaves. Eve being smart enough to have some imagination ate the apple thus moving god's real plan along nicely. Me I am a firm believer in making your own versions of any myths as they are all up for interpretation anyway.

Quarm Level 5 Jan 11, 2019
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It amuses me how bible bashers day everything in the bible is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth but when you point out a number of things that contradict each other they sit there with a dumb look. They think they have all the answers until they are challenged with logic

Kelvinoshea Level 3 Jan 7, 2019
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If Adam was fully aware of all the things, then why did he eat the forbidden fruit?

Aware1 Level 4 Dec 31, 2018
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He was horny for Eve.

0

@Alikat

Freespirit64 Level 8 Dec 28, 2018
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1

Because this site is "agnostic" , I may be out of place commenting (being a misotheist myself) but my take is, the "creator" used his tinker toy set to create "adam" and adam was imperfect. Proof, cancer, lupus, autoimmune diseases, etc, etc. The human body is NOT perfect and never has been. "God threw together some slime and mud and mucus and such and our ancestors crawled out of the ocean and at some point in evolution "he" slapped some sort of cognizance into homo sapiens or homo erectus or whatever and , voila, adam and eve. How many "adams" and "eves" were created is a question no one asks.

DonaldGerard Level 3 Dec 26, 2018
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You are not out of place commenting. I purposefully posted this in the "Silly, Random, and Fun" section... so anything goes..,

Edited
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And language!!! WTF .. if Adam knew the hassle he was letting himself in for with language and Eve .. men cursed for eternity

ShadowAmicus Level 4 Dec 26, 2018
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Questioning anything from the Bible is a virtual buffet of nonsensical propaganda. I still can't figure out how rapidly they, Adam and his rib manifestation of a presumably "perfect" woman, Eve. must have reproduced. So they pro-created snd then what? Their offspring reproduced - no wonder why we are messed up, our supposed origin is the product of some heavy incest.

sjluxt Level 1 Dec 26, 2018
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2

I shall explain this to you. Of course when Adam was created there was nothing in his brain, and so it is today, he, he. Just kidding.

Jolanta Level 8 Dec 26, 2018
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tis group is Silly Random Fun. This belongs in a religion group which are many.
please remove and place in correct group

p

AntaresRose Level 8 Dec 26, 2018
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"Adam was created a perfect man, his body and mind"
I'm more interested on how the author justifies that.. as I was pretty sure the bible never said that..

hippydog Level 7 Dec 26, 2018
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And if memory serves, Eve was created because Adam was lonely. How can a perfect being be lonely? Sounds like an imperfection to me.

I think you're correct that the Bible never said that Adam was created perfect. The creationist answer would be something like, "Adam and Eve were created perfect by God, because whatever God makes, is perfect." Of course, at the time of John Locke's writing, almost everyone in Europe believed in creation. He died more than a hundred years before Charles Darwin was even born.

Edited
1

This reminds me of two things. One, that accepting the premises of the question causes us to try to make sense of something that is not real in the first place. The sense we take from myths and stories is to apply them to life, not to take them so literally that we impose a kind of hyper-realism onto them as if they were straight history narratives. And two...I can still remember in my undergraduate days (English literature) a professor telling us to be careful when analyzing the psychology of characters in stories. Characters in stories may have been written to have certain psychologies, but fictional characters aren't real, and thus applying real human psychology to them as if they ARE living people can be irrational. (Such as the people who try to diagnose Sheldon from BBT with Asberger's, etc. It is a bit bizarre that we suspend our disbelief so fully with some characters that psychoanalyzing them seems perfectly natural.)

greyeyed123 Level 5 Dec 25, 2018
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My pondering this was for the purpose of seeing the ridiculousness of the story. And, like I mentioned in my post, I wasn't looking for answers. I know there are no answer to the questions, because the story is fiction.

1

Interesting questions!

I don't know what was on Adam's mind, but I don't think he was given a "memory" but would have been cognizant and aware of his status as the first man. I am sure that he was given language as he--then Lilith and Eve--conversed. I conjecture that he did not understand "all" concepts as he was warned away from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; it was not truly explained why he needed to not eat the fruit, but had more of an admonition given to a child.

Gwendolyn2018 Level 7 Dec 25, 2018
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Read the writings about Lilith his first wife. Adam wasnt so perfect.

Also when reading historical texts remember to read it with a prejudicial eye to the historical context. Their paradigm of the world was quite different than ours today. It doesnt invalidate their works, just puts a different spin that we would have if written today.

t1nick Level 7 Dec 25, 2018
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Actually, according to the dictates of the patriarchal society, Adam WAS perfect for rejecting her desire to be on top. She was an uppity woman and he put her in her place--even if it did mean that she left his ass to consort with a demon.

@Gwendolyn2018
She was made equal to Adam from the soil, not from one of his ribs. As such she refused to accept anything short of equality. Adam complained to god who then banished her so he could make another from Adams rib. Therefore. Eve was lesser to Adam as she was from Adam and not ftom the Earth as Adam was.

@Gwendolyn2018 Typical patriarchal rationalization that we have been brainwashed to believe.

I hear Lilith must have been fun to be with.

@t1nick Yes, I know. However, Adam did not see her as an equal, which is why he would not be on the bottom during sex. Yahweh did not banish her: she ran away. He sent three angels to bring her back and she refused to return. For her transgression, 100 of her demon children, aka "lilin" were sentenced to die everyday.

You might know that the two accounts of creation in Genesis are attributed to two different authors, Y/J and E; to reconcile the differences, the Midrash tale was concocted to make the two versions jibe. However, the best known version of Lilith comes from The Alphabet of ben Sira.

Also, Lilith was originally Sumerian/Babylonian and was a minor wind goddess or demon. She was also the Dark Maiden who perched in Inanna's huluppu tree.

Eve was, for sure, lesser than Adam--the patriarchy found their woman.

@sfvpool A heck of lot more fun than Eve! She was made into the embodiment of female sexuality, which scared a lot of men. In later lore, she was a succubus, visiting men in their dreams and stealing their semen, aka "wet dreams." Women, real and mythical, were blamed for everything, including nocturnal emissions. Women were burned as witches when men dreamed of having sex with them--of course the women had cast spells on said men. Witches were also notorious for making penises disappear.

@Gwendolyn2018 for which Adam was a fool.

@Gwendolyn2018

thank you Gwendolyn. You have added information I did not know. I appreciate that. You filled in some gaps. Again thank you.

Edited

@Gwendolyn2018

This I was aware of previously. It just makes her all the more intetesting.

@Beowulfsfriend Well, yeah! The Muslims have a scripture that tells men not to let a woman come between them and heaven. While this could mean in a spiritual sense, I have read where it is taken as not to let her on top--I have no idea where I read this, so I cannot support the claim.

This myth and Lilith's refusal to obey is why she is seen as a modern day feminist icon.

@t1nick You might know this, but "lil" means "wind/air" in Sumerian, i.e. Enlil is god of the sky. Lilith was known to harm children by making them ill, probably because they believed pestilence was spread by the wind. This predilection for harming children is seen in the Jewish tale; when Yahweh declares that her children by Samael, the demon, will die each day, she claimed the "right" to human children when they are first born. The Alphabet of ben Sira is about how Nebuchadnezzar's son was healed/protected by an amulet inscribed with the names of the angels sent to bring Lilith back.

She is one of my favorite mythical characters.

[jewishchristianlit.com]

@Gwendolyn2018. New information as well. Thank you

Edited

@Gwendolyn2018 this was all quite fascinating. Thank you! Now onto reading about all this....

@Freespirit64 Myth is one of my consuming passions. I taught several different myth classes for years.

@Gwendolyn2018 yes I seem remember something to that effect reading your posts. Yours is a brain worth picking.

Edited

@Freespirit64 One never knows what might fly out of my brain. (Grin.)

3

Ponder away .. I reckon a slow crawl from primeval swamps and evolution to what we havew become is hopefully a more realistic concept .. and maybe over time, if there is that much time, mankind will evolve into something useful to this world

ShadowAmicus Level 4 Dec 25, 2018
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If Jack Handy's not involved it's not a deep thought.

maturin1919 Level 8 Dec 25, 2018
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I doubt that early man spoke a language it is likely that he made animal like noises to signify danger or food. When two or more individuals adapted their noise making to a common pattern language was born. The world of primitive man would have been filled with many events that were beyond his understanding. Imagination gave rise to an explanation for natural events that he could not comprehend and myths were born.

ASTRALMAX Level 7 Dec 25, 2018
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Yes, but none of that applies to Adam as he was created and did not evolve.

2

My response: religion was the only thing people had to go with before the Age of Enlightenment. (edited to correct a poor choice of a word)

irascible Level 8 Dec 25, 2018
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