10 6

Bernie’s launch. Speech was a barn “berner.” Democracy is coming to the USA?
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By ToolGuy7
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1

Our country is getting sicker but he's the medicine

Rudy1962 Level 9 Mar 5, 2019
2

Make America Bern Again! Build the Bern! Lock Trump up!

We in the rest of the 'civilised' world are hoping our American cousins will get it right next time.

David1955 Level 7 Mar 3, 2019
2

I love Bernie but I'm so scared he can't win against Trump. I'm not jumping on his bandwagon yet.

Remi Level 7 Mar 3, 2019

Some Democrats really hate him. But I think voters will do anything to get rid of Trump, so if he wins the primaries they’ll vote for him. And as an added bonus people who voted for Stein over Clinton in 2016 will vote for him this time around.

I think there were more people at Bernie’s launch yesterday than at Trump’s inauguration. If he gets a million workers, he wins.

@Closeted Nice analysis. Do you think he is hated because of his use of the S word or something else?

@ToolGuy I think the reason he lost the last primary is because people are stupid. All my friends who voted for Hillary voted for her because she's a woman. I don't think they even took him seriously.

This time around? I really don't know, but I know a lot of people ARE scared of the S word. They don't understand (and he really should clarify, if he hasn't already) that he's not a straight-up socialist but a democratic socialist.

Some people also have the idea that people who support Bernie want free stuff. They really don't understand at all. They don't question where our tax dollars are going and they say stuff like "we can't afford universal healthcare."

But like I said, Hill-bots (what leftists call them) blame Bernie for her loss. I guess they think he slandered her too much when he was running (although he said "Nobody cares about the damn emails," which people seem to have forgotten) and they criticize him for what they see as a lukewarm endorsement of her from him (whereas people on the far left think he betrayed them for endorsing her at all).

@ToolGuy some of my friends went to go see him. I personally never go to those things because I really hate crowds, and I'm still looking at all the candidates.

@Closeted Agreement. Some of my Canadian friends were posting supporting Hillary because of her alleged genitalia. Alleged because I have never actually looked but ....I suspect that one of them who votes Liberal up here was so upset at Hillary’s loss that she decided to get off FB where she posted her Hillary gushiness daily. I usually tried to introduce examples of Hillary’s neoliberalsim to counter it but she always said that Trump had to be stopped and it was time for a woman in the whitehouse.

Edited

@Closeted BTW Bernie sounds like a social democrat and I cannot remember how he describes it. If, as I believe, socialism has evolved to worker co-ops away from government ownership and central planning, he is still not there. He talks about strengthening unions not worker ownership. That is social democracy.

Edited
3

I feel bad for the Bernie supporters. Y'all have already forgotten what the crooked DNC did to him last time.

motrubl4u Level 7 Mar 2, 2019

And he keeps!quiet and kisses the ring. I voted for him in the primary in 2016 but won't vote for him again. The POTUS office can't have someone so weak and timid facing the other world leaders.

I think he had to be strategic. If he becomes president, he will need the support of the Dems to get things through. That was true last time too. He is on a mission and knows how Washington works.

1

Bernie will not win. Something will happen to him before that happens. There is no fucking way the 1% vampires will stand by and get their $ fucked with. No way.

Gooniesnvrdie Level 7 Mar 2, 2019

Nobody cares. Go Bernie!

I know right. If he promised to abolish the federal reserve and irs he would stand a chance. But then again who would steal everyones money..

@Biptu You are wrong about those institutions. Your concept of money may also be outdated.

@CaroleKay I think you missed my point. Here, I'll spell it out for ya.....

Bernie will be "suicided" if he wins.

Get it? Hahaha

@Gooniesnvrdie Lol! No, but you missed mine and yeah "the vampires" will have to kill him. Right now, they have till the primaries.

4

If Bernie will cave in and support Clinton, you can be sure he will cave when it comes to the military industrial complex and all the foreign wars . . . . and who knows what else. Don't get your hopes up, because you will be very disappointed. No matter who ends up in the White House, it is still going to be the same old song and dance. I refuse to vote for either a democrat or a republican, they are not so different from each other as they would like to have you believe. You will not change a thing the plutocrats are doing . . . . by voting . . . . . when was the last time voting really changed anything?
.
Democrat = Republican = Plutocratic corporate fascist war-for-profit-loving gangster stooge.

THHA Level 7 Mar 2, 2019

Even though he supported Clinton he’s still being blamed for her loss.

@Closeted Not by anybody but you.

@ToolGuy uh, not by me. You don’t pay much attention to what goes on around you, do you.

@Closeted Not going on around me. I live in another country so get to look at it from a distance. If he is being blamed for Clinton’s loss — wait a minute — didn’t she win? She got 3 million more votes than Trump. How is Sanders responsible for electoral college decisions? Instead of pointing fingers maybe some reform of the electoral college system is required. From where I sit you have had at least two presidents in recent times selected by the college instead of elected by the voters.

@ToolGuy well, lots of people are saying that, it doesn’t make sense but they are.

But yes our shitty system is what’s responsible for Trump - although (I might get flamed for saying this) Hillary wasn’t the best candidate.

Edited

He supported Clinton because, and only because, he could see clearly what a disaster drump is/was, you fool! Who was he supposed to do with those 2 choices, and if you say Jill Stein, I will throw something...oh, and btw, where is old Steiny?...not a peep in 2 years except asking for $$$, where is her commentary on, oh, drump's environmental rape?

Edited

@Closeted Hillary wasn’t the best candidate. No flames from me on that one. She and her husband support neoliberalism. But are you saying the electoral college did NOT chose Trump over Hilary?

Edited

@Closeted, @AnneWimsey I do not support Stein but your MSM would not report her statements and positions anyways. Fake news or alternate facts or something. Up here I often see things she has said. Trump has focused the attention on the media on other things like a magician to fool people. What about Ralph Nader? Have you seen anything by him? I have. A lot.

@ToolGuy I voted for Nader a long time ago. I wish people had taken him seriously, but our system is set up in such a way that if you’re not part of one of these two shitty parties you don’t have a chance. I wonder if he could have won the primary if he had run as a Democrat.

@ToolGuy no, Hillary did not win. We are a republic, not a democracy. She knew the rules and chose to ignore middle America so she deserved to lose. California and New York are not all that matters in America.

@AnneWimsey She doesn't exactly get a lot of air time on tv with the corporate media, but she does say a lot on Twitter or where she can. Nothing she does or says will ever be good enough for Democrats though.

@jorj My definition of winning is the most votes. The electoral college selected Bush and then Trump. Hillary had more votes. What if the votes from the electoral college had been apportioned based on each state’s vote for each candidate. A form of Proportional Representation. You are letting your dislike of her or her campaign cloud the judgement about the undemocratic way in which your leaders are selected and not elected.

@AnneWimsey
"He supported Clinton because, and only because, he could see clearly what a disaster drump is/was, you fool!" Giving that you are resorting to personal attacks, you have now been warned not to do so in the future on my thread or you will be going bye-bye. You know what, fuck the warning . . . .

Edited

@ToolGuy I'm not letting my dislike of anyone cloud anything. I'm stating the way US elections are done by law and she knew the system and chose to ignore middle American workers in the "Blue Wall" rust belt and Trump offered them something. Yes he lied, but at least he acknowledge those people and that is all Hillary would have had to do but she chose to stay in the coastal elite bubble at millionaire level "dinners" and she deserved to lose for it. Funny how it was Trump who got jumped about accepting election results before the vote was in but now all of a sudden the left is the ones not accepting it. How ironic is that?

@ToolGuy I personally think it should require the candidate winning the majority of States. Each state should be the same when it comes to our federal system. Widespread appeal is more important than popular vote in a country as vast as ours. Compare Europe having countries to us having states and if the Euro made a "federal" system each country there should get equal say. Democracy isn't as good as a republic, in a democracy all the white people could vote slavery back in to law where as a republic gives equal voice to all so that the majority don't rule the minority.

@jorj Why should that be FPTP? Winner take all. Why not have the electoral votes apportioned by the percentage of people in that state who voted for a candidate in that state?

@jorj Law is often wrong. Slavery used to be legal.

@ToolGuy don't know FPTP.

Slavery used to be legal and in a pure democracy it wouldn't be as hard to bring it back as it would be in a republic. Pure democracy has many faults just like any other system.

@jorj FPTP - First Past The Post. Treating elections like they were horse races. Winner take all.

@ToolGuy it's how we always did it and no one said anything until recently, when Democrats abandoned middle america workers and can't win with just coastal votes. If dems didn't sell out to Wall St they would still be able to win middle america by offering them something. Don't need to change the voting laws, we need an actual left wing that can win with liberal policy and principles that people actually want like they used to do.

Edited

@jorj You are ignoring the extensive gerrymandering and voter suppression that has been going on. But you have not answered my question why all of a state’s electoral college votes should go to one party when the votes were split. Some states have already revised those procedures. There is a reason for it and that is to ensure that left wing governments cannot win power.

There are three countries in the western democracies that do NOT have proportional systems, Great Britain or England, Canada and the USA. Here is one article about it. [politifact.com]

Edited

@ToolGuy where did I ignore gerrymandering? That has nothing at all to do with the POTUS election. Districts don't change anything on a national level election. Glad u know the talking point tho.

I think whoever wins the state wins that state. I would prefer to see all states have only 1 electoral vote but they don't.

@jorj But it affects the senate and house. And without those the president has no real power.

@ToolGuy I wasn't aware we were talking about those elections since the topic was electoral college. Which one are we gonna discuss? U can't accuse me of ignoring something that isn't a part of what we were discussing.

@jorj I believe that people’s votes should count and elections should not be treated like a horse race or hockey game. It is too important. When 49% of the people in a state vote for a candidate, their votes are essentially negated in the electoral college system because the other candidate got 51% and overrides the rest by getting all the electoral college votes. Yes you are a republic but you are also supposed to be a REPRESENTATIVE democracy which you cannot be if your vote gets overridden in that way and then is again overridden when the candidate with the most votes is declared the loser. Even the British and Canadian governments which also have horribly unrepresentative systems cannot override a party that achieves the plurality of votes. Those are the only other two nations besides the USA that do not have a form of PR to allow everybody’s vote to count. In effect, EVERY single vote cast for Clinton was negated when the electoral college overrode the wishes of the majority of voters. The wishes of the majority were neither respected nor represented.

Edited

@ToolGuy if 49% vote for the losing governor their votes are negated as well. I see what u are saying but just don't agree with it. I think the electoral system is the best system created so far. Democracy is not as good because of the majority automatically gets their way and the minority is just left out. Popular vote would mean only a few cities would be campaigned to and their needs addressed and the rest of America would be screwed. Either have wide spread appeal of hang it up is my opinion. 10 coastal cities shouldn't be the sole selectors of the POTUS election and nothing unsay can change my mind about that.

@ToolGuy plus those two countries don't have near the population we do or the vast differences in culture across the land they hold. The US is the most diverse and the most cultural and thus needs a system that gives all those populations a fair voice if their is gonna be a 50 state union. Other countries have nothing even close to what we have here and most people from around the world don't even realize the differences from state to state unless they have traveled the USA.

@jorj You do not understand PR. It ends the tyranny of the majority and requires decisions to be negotiated.

@ToolGuy u don't have a clue about what I understand. Maybe it's u that can't understand the concept and only understand the more simple majority wins style.

@jorj You reveal your understanding or lack thereof in your comments. Especially the last one.

@ToolGuy sure, u just know everything better than everyone I see. How arrogant of ya.

@jorj fair enough. If you know you are not open to the ideas of others. It seems. Have you studied Proportional Representation systems?

@ToolGuy didn't say anything about being open to others but I don't listen to others who are arrogant enough to think they know what I do or do not know. That proves it is a waste of time to even talk to them. U should learn how to communicate and listen instead of thinking u know all and know what others do or don't know. U may not be American but u def have the arrogant American attidtude.

@jorj You still did not answer my question.

@ToolGuy and I don't plan on it. When someone is so arrogant they think their position is the only logical stance and anyone who don't agree with them is just ignorant there is no reason for discussion. It shows how closed minded u are because u can't fathom someone else knowing the same stuff that u do but coming to a different conclusion so discussion is futile. As soon as u claim to know what the other person does or don't know based off the only a disagreement u have shown yourself to be nothing more than ignorant and closed minded as u project it on to someone else. When u learn to have respectful dialogue instead of delusional psychic powers that allow u to dismiss things u might actually learn some things and also teach someone else things they don't know but until then it's pointless with u.

@jorj You still have not answered my question. Instead you use ad hominem attacks.

2

I think if Bernie gets nominated we really need to concentrate on whose his running mate.

JackPedigo Level 8 Mar 2, 2019
3

So Happy! Feeling The Bern!

AnneWimsey Level 8 Mar 2, 2019

Yes!

1

It did indeed hit on a lot of the on going messages he has driven for his whole political and activist life. I wish he and the brothers and sisters who will also pick up the torch to fight.

How will the people react this time when the establishment and the monied elites block or openly cheat and flex their corrupt control over the system?

Do you honestly think the powerful will play fair? In my life I have never seen anyone with privilege, political, or financial advantage not use it to gain a unfair advantage.. to stack the deck and cheat.

Don't get me wrong I support the humanist and progressive movements. I happen to also be plagued with a realist and pessimist view of politics, religion, and human behavior.

So how is this time going to be different?

RobertFoley Level 5 Mar 2, 2019

Have you not noticed the Yuge impact the recent mid-term elections made? Get Out & VOTE!

@AnneWimsey what would our democracy look like if we could add ammendments to make corporatist corruption outlawed in city, state and federal government?

3

We’re going to get our country back!! ✊🏼

48thRonin Level 8 Mar 2, 2019
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